The Art of Fatherhood

*Recorded 2025

This episode of Father Figures starts with a personal reflection on what it means to grow apart from something you once loved—and how fatherhood can reshape that relationship. Then I sit down with Dr. Jeremy L. George to really talk through what it looks like to balance being an artist and being a father in real life. 

From touring stages to bedtime routines, Dr. George shares how fatherhood has reshaped his understanding of success, sacrifice, and legacy. This episode is for the father-artists—those learning, in real time, how to hold space for both their craft and their families. If you’ve ever tried to hold onto your passion while showing up fully for your kids, this one is for you.

Transcript

Keith O 0:04

Welcome to Father Figures. There was a time you were so deeply embedded in me I could sneeze your soliloquies. Your choruses congested me till I blew mucus of your melodies, those mellifluous monstrosities. So I would drink down the robot rhythms that were your remedies. You had the ability to make me feel well like some fresh squeezed OJ. You were my main squeeze. I could cough up cornucopias of metaphors that would make me feel like I was laying at heaven's door. There was a time you were so deeply embedded in me, even arthritis was artistic. The way my hand would stiffen up, written stuff ripped up, given up attempts attempting to match your sentences. Your verses of verbiage acquainted me with the adjectives that would be my advil for my arthritis, the adderall for my ADHD, soothing. Your haikus heightened my senses, grass appeared brighter, birds' songs were so much sweeter, I was a witness. Your sonnets delivered shivers, and like fires, your similes would warm me. Like the little kid's comfort blanket, I would walk around hands free with nothing but your words adorning me. I hyperextended my reach on reality, hanging on to your hyperbole, develop allergies to your arsenal of allegories, so I would shower with your stories, brush my teeth with your books, rinse with and spit your rhymes and hooks. But one day they started to become bland. Your dosages of passages before sleep became placebo. And sometimes I wonder where'd that sneeze go? I think that was my body trying to get rid of you. And I don't know why, your poems still packed potency, just not the same effect on me. So lately I have to take a little jacket when I feel a breeze and maybe pop a little emergency. But there was a time you were so deeply embedded in me I could sneeze your soliloquies. You were the cure and the culprit, and from sneeze to release with little to no ease, this has been an attempt to assemble ample adjectives to play a part and explaining how growing apart can be depicted in art. Since I was a kid, I've been an artist. Drawing, writing poetry, creating dances, songs, monologues, whatever you can think of. And throughout my life, I've been so committed to that pursuit that I got two degrees in theater. And as for as much as I knew, the life of an artist was going to be my life. Then I got a new role. How do you balance being an artist and a father? Both feel precious from creation to the time you send them out into the world. For me, I always dreamt of one. Never really gave thought to the other. And so when the opportunity came to be an artist, to pursue being an actor, to be on different stages and screens and have different experiences, I was down for whatever. But when the opportunity came to be a father, because everything it took to get there, I realized I couldn't view it the same way I viewed acting and being an artist. Acting and being an artist, that's something that I had to become. Being a father required something else. Both required intention, but being a father required something else. Both required flexibility, but being a father required something else. Both required vulnerability and sacrifice, but being a father required something else. It required not putting my dreams on whole, but reprioritizing the veracity with which I approached one. In today's episode, speaking with Dr. Jeremy George, professor of music education at Houston Tillerson University, we explore being an artist and being a father. Because they both require very special attention to detail. They require intention. And when you are someone who creates like you breathe, it can be a challenge trying to have both of those lives at the same time. So today we walk through that experience. This episode is for the father artists. How do you make space for both? How do you navigate both? And how does your art affect your relationship with your children?

Speaker 5:38

Yeah, sometime.

Keith O 5:40

Before when we went to uh Tennessee. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we had the conversation. What's crazy is, you know, after that conversation, a lot of good things happened. I did some commercials. Naeem did a commercial. Um but the thing that was so challenging, and this is one of the things that I want to talk to you about, is even when you're doing the thing, you're good. Even when you're, you know, you're finding space to be an artist, sometimes life kicks up and you have to take a step back. Because we talked about like, you know, still finding that creative process and you know, finding time for yourself. And I felt like I had started to do that because I think I did a play. I think I did the play maybe right before it was either right before or right after the trip. And then did a couple commercials. Then, you know, money started to get tight, because you know, as a as a maybe it's different for musicians, but actors, we don't always get paid right on the end of the gig, right? And so, you know, I did like three or four commercials, but I didn't get paid for like two or three of them until I went home to Florida for Thanksgiving. So, you know, plane takeoff, got no money. Plane land by five grand. Yeah. So, you know, when it comes through, it's great, but you know, bills are due every month. And so one of the things that I know about you there that our guests are gonna find out is that you have traveled the world as a musician. And you did part of that while also being a father. And so, how has becoming a father shaped or redefined, you know, what success looks like for you?

Dr. Jeremy George 7:29

Well, this is when I went to Japan, I was almost married. So it wasn't any kids yet. Okay, cool. Specifically for that, when I started doing more the other touring, that's when I had to balance the kids and the the wife and the family and the everything. Okay. So yeah.

Keith O 7:50

So we know, like, and so I so I'm married and have a child as well. So you and I both know that what you are for your wife and how that shows up is very different than you know how you have control for your kids. There is some overlap. So I'm specifically interested in how, you know, Torrin, how that affected your relationship with your kids. Because of course they get to see you. What was it like, you know, that first adjustment? Did you feel like you were missing things? How did that how did that work out?

Dr. Jeremy George 8:19

Well, just before I start to kind of give you some context, so I always, when I was young, when I was in elementary school, my parents got divorced. Right. So, you know, my parents got divorced, and when they were together, they was always bickering and arguing, and like I just hated hearing that. Sure. Even to this day, now like we with me and my wife, we don't we don't like argue like that. You know, I mean, we'll have a conversation. If it starts to get heated, we can't come to a resolve. We'll talk about it later. You know what I mean? Because that's kind of like a a dark spot in my childhood of hearing. Now, why am I saying this? They later got a divorce. You know, my dad ended up moving to Houston. We're still living in Florida. He stayed in Houston a couple years, then he moved out to Phoenix. And so we will only see my dad, our father, me and my sister, we only see our father in the summertime a week or two. And he would literally, just so he would could maximize his time intimately with us, he would drive from Houston to Florida to pick us up, you know. And so, I mean, we're talking, what is that, 12 hours, something like that? So, you know, that's uninterrupted time. I mean, barring that we stay up, but you know, it's uninterrupted time. And, you know, anyway, so we didn't really see him. So I knew that when I had kids that I wanted to be able to be there more for them than what my father was specifically physically there for us because of circumstances. Uh I have a good relationship with my dad. You know, we good, we've talked about it. So, you know, we're we're good, you know, no hard feelings. But I just say that with no shade in mind, but just to say how I'm gonna get into this next question. So you asked about touring dynamic and traveling dynamic with my kid. My first thought is always how can I get them to experience the world just like I am? That's one, right? You know, my Delta app, you know, is is filled up with this and that and this and that. And it's like, all right, I gotta go here to do this, I'm playing here, I'm teaching here, I'm going to do a residency here, I'm working, I'm recording here, I'm doing this here, I'm doing that there, I'm going to visit. And it's like every time, you know, I'm leaving my kids behind and my wife, my family. You know what I mean? Specifically with, I know we talk about, you know, kids, but with my marriage, it took a while for my wife to understand that this is what I do. Right. I saw a post a couple years back where it talks about, you know, essentially how to be the wife of an artist.

Keith O 11:26

It's hard. It's hard.

Dr. Jeremy George 11:28

Because our holiday, holidays are work days, folks. You know what I mean? Like, hey, for me, hey, Christmas time, two weeks before Christmas, I might be playing every night. You know what I mean? Top dollar, and that's gonna fund our Christmas.

Speaker 5 11:44

Right, right, right, right.

Dr. Jeremy George 11:46

So, you know, Valentine's Day, I I love you, baby, but we're gonna celebrate on the 15th or the 13th. Right. Because I got a club to play at. You know what I mean? You know, and I'm sure the same with you are acting in theater, you know, those my days have always been homecoming.

Keith O 12:02

Like, I'm always in a play around homecoming. But like I've wanted to take my wife for years. We've gotten there to year 10 next year. Every September into October. So birthday into homecoming, I'm always busy with doing something. Christmas. Usually Christmas shows end right before then, but if I'm in something in November, so yeah, no, it's definitely like that's part of being an artist. Like, you know, sometimes you can create your own opportunities, but a lot of times if you are because that comes with a whole different set of work. So other times you take the work as it comes, especially if it's something, you know, that pays well, something that you can be passionate about. But yeah, it's definitely one of those things where it's up and down and you do what you can so you can do what you want, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jeremy George 12:48

So as it relates to like my kids and stuff, you know, I always, you know, anytime I leave, I'm always on the earliest flight out, you know. So the night before, barring I don't have a gig, but the night before, a lot of times I'm, you know, I'm just with the kids and say, hey, daddy gotta, you know, daddy gotta play, daddy's going here, I need to teach, or I need to play, or I need to do this. And um uh boy, what's up, man? You see how big he is? How you doing? Yes, sir.

Keith O 13:22

You getting a signal for signal for a three-year-old pretty often.

Speaker 13:27

Hey, well, so anyway, like you know, what I was saying was, you know, I always feel I always feel kind of indifferent. Feel confident because I know that I'm doing, I'm working in my my gift. Right. Number one, and number two, I'm being the provider that God called me to be. Right, yeah. So that's that's number one and number two, but always in the back of my mind, you know, like I said, I'm always leaving out on the first flight out. So I'm my flights be out at 5 a.m. or whatever. So they be sleep. So, you know, like you know, I always say, you know, daddy's gonna go, you know, I'll be back in a week, or I'll be back in three days, or I'll be back tomorrow, you know, it just depends. Um, but that always, you know, I always be feeling kind of a little way, just a little bit.

Speaker 5 14:18

Yeah.

Speaker 14:19

Specifically, like off the responses of my son Jeremiah. So Jeremy, he's just cool, you know. He's like, okay, oh no, we just killed Casey her own. She's like asking more questions and doing that. But Jeremiah, Jeremiah, he's always like, you know, do you have to go? And, you know, do you have to do this? I'm like, I'm like, you know, little buddy, man, you know, I I gotta work. You're gonna understand it a little bit more later, but I work and this is what I do.

Keith O 14:54

So so so I want to ask a question about that because you know parents with demanding, you know, fathers with demanding uh schedules for one reason or another. Like yours is demanding because you're in demand, versus, you know, our fathers whose schedule was demanding because you know, they're trading their time for money, usually in some type of manual labor job. And so when you're somebody who's like living in that gift and you are going out here, you know, really like changing people's mood sometimes. Yeah, how do you because you know you talk to him about you know understand something from working, but like, do you create, you know, time just for you and him so he, you know, can't make up for lost time, but just so he has some time where he feels like, you know, I'm as important to daddy as what what he does?

Speaker 15:44

Yeah, so so with all three of them, I try my best to get some time with each one of them. Um uh, you know, time so like on Mondays, whatever, I'll go to, you know, to pick up some stuff from the store at the church. Sure. You know, right before dinner, you gotta run to Walmarty, you gotta whatever, whatever. And you know, Casey always liked to ride with me. Right. Number one, because she's gonna be able to pick up a couple things and she ain't gotta work. You know, she, oh, hey, daddy, can you know, I wanna go, I wanna go. Why? Because you, hey daddy, you know, can I get this little thing? And I'll be like, yeah, baby, you know, whatever. You know, she she knows how to get it out of me. Right. But you know, with the boys, the boys like video games. You know what I mean? So a lot of times I just hey Jeremy, come on down, man. Let's play Super Smash Brothers. You know what I mean? We'll get on the game, we'll do something. Or, you know, Jeremiah, he he just like to just sit. He's a cuddler kind of.

Keith O 16:46

Yeah.

Speaker 16:46

Not real big on cuddling, but you know, but you do a funny Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't even cuddle with my wife like that. That I just be like, hey bro, I love you. That ain't really my love language. You see what I'm saying?

Keith O 17:00

But that that that's that's an interesting one because I think that's like a dynamic that a lot of fathers deal with. I I think that transcends racial lines, but I do think part of the thing with us is you know, not seeing that affection when we were kids from my father's like my parents are still together to this day, but my dad wasn't a hugger or anything like that. And I remember how old are your boys? Nine. So I was about their age, I was like 10 years old, and I remember, and my dad was never a hugger, cuggler. My dad literally said, I love you. He says a lot more now. But I remember he was putting me to bed one night, and I went to hug his net. And at the time, I was big on watching the Wayne's brothers. And you know, they were super affectionate on the show. They they hug, sometimes they kiss, like on the cheek and stuff, like you know, brothers. And so I saw that, and it kind of like redefined like what intimacy could be for black men who were related because it was like this isn't a sexual thing. Like these, you know, they share the same DNA and they just love each other that much. And so I remember hugging my dad one time, and I gave him a kiss on the cheek, and I immediately felt like I had done something wrong. He didn't snap, he didn't pull away, but I never did it again, right? And um, you know, that's just kind of like the how we're wired. But my son, he gets hugs and kisses all the time, so much so that he goes to daycare, and I picked him up one day, and they're like, Does he get a lot of kisses at home? Like, yeah, like because he's running around trying to give kisses to everybody. And so, and so, you know, I guess how does that, you know, could you explain to him that it's not you, but you still do it for his benefit. So have you found yourself like in moments do you find yourself enjoying it without even noticing it? Like, oh, this is kind of cool.

Speaker 18:54

With him, yeah. Okay. With the other kids who ain't really like the other kids kind of wired like me. You know what I mean? They, hey, bro, I love you. You know, I give him a give him a hug or whatever. And now Casey getting over older, she to the point to where, like, yeah, just wait for me at the car. Don't come to the don't come up to the school to get that, she's at that point. Yeah, yeah. She just, you know, she's going into seventh grade, so it's starting to starting to change. Which be kind of hurting a little bit. I'll be like, hey, hey, hey. You know? What do you mean?

Keith O 19:29

So, you know she's changing and you know, your boys are growing. So how how have your relationships with your kids changed your relationship to music?

Speaker 19:41

So that's a good question. So it's been an interesting journey. I um I I feel like when they were born, I started grinding even harder with music. That's because, you know, we just want to maximize whatever that top level is that we possibly could get to in our field, we want to try to get there. Yeah. You know, so I'm, you know, working on records, I'm I'm doing this, I'm making connections, I'm like, all right, cool, let me get it. But, you know, then I kind of stepped back because, you know, obviously, you know that I'm an educator as well as a musician. And me being a band director, my hours was crazy anyway. So I was seeing music in a different light when my children were born, and I kind of eased on over a little bit more intimately to the educator side instead of the performance side. I still perform to this day. I love playing. But I think, you know, because of what education is and teaching and always giving information, and when I came in my father role, it kind of shifted to that side. And my relationship with music is is still great. I think my kids' relationship with music is coming coming along.

Keith O 21:06

Your kids play.

Speaker 21:09

Yep. So Casey is now in band. She still sings all the time. She hears me sing a lot, she hears me singing my gigs. She actually likes to come to my gigs when you know, when she can. Most of the time I'm playing at clubs. Yeah. But if I'm doing like a private event that's during the day, I'll push her chair off to the side so she could check it out. You know, she's kind of like my road dog, and you know, I make something, I'll be like, hey, what you think about this? Sometimes she'll be like, Daddy, uh uh, that ain't, you know, that ain't it.

Keith O 21:45

They're gonna tell the truth, man.

Speaker 5 21:47

Kids are excellent at that, man. They're gonna tell you the truth.

Speaker 21:50

Yeah. Interesting story with Casey. Well, her journey banned, when it was time for her to go in her sixth grade, she was selecting her electors, right? This is you know, they do it at the end. Fifth grade, they give them the sheets, and it's like she told me she had got her paper to select her elective, and I was like, let me know what you want to select. You know, whatever you want to do is whatever you want to do, don't do anything specifically because of me, right? And so she ended up telling me she was like, ah, you know, got in band and choir. And I was like, great, that makes me happy, but I don't want you to do this because you think you're gonna make me happy by you doing that. You know, I wanted her to have a good relationship with music. So I told her the decision she made to get in band and get in choir, that's because she enjoys music, not because I play music, you know. And so that was a really good thing. And she's been pretty, pretty good. You know, every now and then I let her know that, you know, hey man, you know, it's in your DNA to be a good musician. You're gonna be, you're gonna have natural talent. You need to practice. You see what I'm saying? And she knows that because she hears and sees me practicing in the house a lot. But anyway, so so all that being said, in terms of Jeremy and Jeremiah, I'm kind of letting them kind of shape their own way. I honestly think that Jeremy out of the three of them is probably the most musically gifted. I can just see it. And that's your hunger, your affectionate one. No, no, no, no, no. That that Jeremiah is. Okay. Jeremiah's musical abilities. I don't know. I don't think that's his jam, you know what I mean? Which is cool, you know.

Keith O 23:47

But if you wanted to try, you if you wanted to try, you would supportive and help him as much as you could, right?

Speaker 23:52

Of course. Of course, of course, of course. I ain't gonna leave him on the day. Hang it. And I'm not gonna say, you know, quit, don't quit your day job, but you know, I do just from what I see right now, sure, and what I know about student growth in music, what Jeremy is hey, hey, you can't sing on key, and you know, it ain't it ain't, you know, it's is one of them.

Speaker 4 24:14

Sure.

Speaker 24:15

But but hey, if you want to do it, I'm with it. We're gonna we're gonna work and we're gonna we're gonna make it happen happen, you know. The hardest part with them, specifically with Casey, is me not interrupting her practice sessions and say, no, baby, try this again, but but let me show you. You know what I mean? Because it's hard.

Keith O 24:34

Yeah, you you you jump into that other mode versus you know being a dad and just like observing, like it's hard for you to not teach the thing that you are, you know, an expert at.

Speaker 24:46

Yeah. And so, and another thing, as it related to her band director at school, when they had open house, I purposely did not introduce myself as I'm Dr. George, the professor, you know, since professor music and this, that you know what I mean? I purposely said, Hey, how you doing? I'm Jeremy. You know, I'm happy to be a band dad. That's exactly what I told him. Right. He was like, hey, great. Well, you know, if you know, um, I don't know what, you know, she may want to play, but there is a financial piece, just want to let our parents notice now. And I was like, Yeah, that's cool, you know, no problem, whatever. And Casey was the one who told him, I've been around band all my life. Of course. And so he was like, Huh? What do you mean? And she was like, Yeah, my dad was a band director for 10 years. And then he was like, Oh my god, well, where? How's he, you know, but I didn't I wanted her to have that moment instead of me ajacking that moment. Right. Yeah. So those are the things that I'm trying to trying to do.

Keith O 25:54

But that sounds like that sounds like a father who is satisfied with what you've been able to do before kids. Because I I think so often, man, that people's identity becomes being a parent. Yeah. And when your identity becomes being a parent, then it makes it really hard for your kids to have genuine moments because you're looking at it like if they compliment your kids, they're complimenting you. And then it's like, well, what are they doing it for if they can't get any of the joy out of it, if they can't get any of the praise out of it? It's like, so that's something that's really awesome. And something I commend, and that's something that I'm working on. And I think that's why I'm working so hard now because when Naeem starts doing things, I don't want his accomplishments, like, of course I'll be proud, but I don't want his accomplishments to be something that I, you know, run around like, yeah, yeah, I did this, I did this. Like, no, he did this. I was just, you know, made sure that he had the space to figure it out.

Speaker 26:54

Exactly, exactly. You know, it's just like you don't want to be those parents who have to live vicariously through your kid. Like, for instance, you know, I I well, you when you worked at Carroll City, you probably saw it too. You ever went out to the football game? Them dads are standing there with their letterman jacket on on the side. Hey, hey, lock in, man.

Keith O 27:16

Why do you ain't do sweet? Super loud parents, but you never see them when it's something academic related. Um don't pick them up or take them to practice, but they show up at the games. I had a couple of kids like that, man. Super talented kids, but never saw their dads or only saw them like when it was like the bigger games. And it's like, how do you think that, you know, I'm just wondering, like, how do you think the kid feels knowing that he's working this hard and so often, working this hard to impress you, but he doesn't hear it, you know, regularly. He only hears it, you know, when he scores a touchdown in the biggest game of the season. If they play in a team that's not so good, you know where to be found, you know? So definitely have seen that and trying my best, you know, every day to not grow into that dad, because, you know, like I said, what does it do for the kids? Like my dad, I I love my dad, he's still around, my parents are still married, but my dad was not one to who came to games and plays and stuff like that. My mom was actually was one, she was like, I actually had to threaten him a couple times to get him to come. Like, you're not gonna sit on this couch on Saturday, you're gonna go sit and watch the boy play football. I was horrible at football, but she made him come. It's okay. This is this is part of it. So my wife is over here trying to get my son from behind the camera. And um it's funny.

Speaker 28:39

Oh, I see your hand over there.

Keith O 28:42

It's funny because one of the things I've been talking about is not trying to do this father figures thing as if like I just don't have the responsibility. This is part of it, you know, figuring out how to create a podcast and a brand and a community for fathers to talk about things that we don't get to talk about on the regular to people who understand what we're going through as fathers. You know, I think that's one of the biggest reasons why dads don't talk to other dads or fathers, don't talk to other fathers, is because one, the space has never really been created. Like fathers will talk about their bills, they'll talk about their partners to a degree, you know, careful what you say about your partner. They'll talk about sports, but these conversations like the one that we're having now, I don't remember my dad having these conversations growing up. I don't remember seeing other men have these conversations.

Speaker 29:40

Yeah. Yeah. The closest place to it, to this podcast for them was the barbershop.

Keith O 29:47

Yep.

Speaker 29:48

Yep, 100%. But like, man, this fatherhood journey, man, is you know, one thing that my mom told me when we had Casey, my daughter, um, was no kid comes with uh an instruction manual. And every kid is gonna be different.

Speaker 4 30:10

Yeah.

Speaker 30:10

You're gonna have challenges, you're gonna have things that you go you face that you're gonna be like, how the heck am I gonna get out of this or get through this? You know, but that's what it is, you know what I mean?

Keith O 30:23

And that's why this is here for that, because you like we've had conversations, you know. I've had I've had to call you and make sure that I didn't offend you, or you know, just being really honest about like what this journey is and what the reason for this space is, is yeah, you're figuring out things daily, and some things you're gonna figure out before me because you know, you're at that point before me, or based on you know the work that I do as an actor, you know, so much of it is like social, emotional, and emotional uh regulation, all these things. There may be some things that I figure out before you, but I think this space is so important because it allows us to figure this, you know, this thing called fatherhood out in community. And I think that's something, like you said, outside of the barbershop that is really missing in the fatherhood community, specifically black fathers. And you know, burnout is a real thing. And I think that burnout comes from feeling like you have to figure it out on your own and you gotta be perfect while you're figuring it out.

Speaker 31:24

Yeah, it for for real, man. You know, so these conversations are important, you know what I mean? And just like I don't know, like one thing I will say, when I had little, little kids, my boy Harold, who has seven kids, he uh look, just be patient with your kids, you know. And the same thing like like as it relates to like marriage, too. You know, like when I used to get so like I used to get so frustrated with Val. And the only thing he kept telling me was, remember, the wife, the only thing they have to do is submit. The husbands, we have the hardest job. And God commanded us to love our wives as Christ loved the church.

Keith O 32:12

Man, I talk about that so often, man. One of the things that I said about this podcast, I wouldn't push my faith on anyone, but people who came into this space and who were of the same, you know, same mindset that I could go there with them, man. That is such a difficult thing because I don't think people really put that into context. When you say that, that means you have to be willing to die for your wife. And you know, it's easy for people to think about the physical, that's a one-time thing. But the real death is your ego and your pride in moments where you feel like you're right or you feel like I just need you to do this. And it's like submitting yourself to God so you can, you know, come so you can present yourself as a humble servant, so then it's easier for your wife to be like, you know what? I trust you, I'm gonna go with this. That's that's the challenge, man.

Speaker 33:08

Yeah. And he broke it down, he was like, you know, when like just one day when I was like, bruh, you know, I can't do this. You know what I mean? He was like, he was like, Jeremy, just love your wife as Christ loved the church. And I was like, okay, I get that. But he was, you know, I hear you say that, but like right now, I don't want to hear that. And he was like, and he was like, think about it like this who is the church? I said, we are okay, cool. We are the church, the believers, we're the church. And he was like, think about how many times in your life were you done something that you know that was against God's commands, uh commandments, and yet he still loves you and accept you with open arms. You know, whatever, whatever sin you can think of, and he's still sitting there like this.

Speaker 5 34:09

Right.

Speaker 34:11

And so now back to your wife. We have to love them the same way, you know. Obviously, you know, there's some there's still some boundaries to where we're human, but there's the example, right? Right. And I'm like, talk about big shoes to Phil, but you know, that and and that's the thing. And and then I also believe that parenting is the same way. Yeah. You know, and and I I hear parents, you know, where they say, you know, like you, you know, of course, we talking about church and different things and faith, but you hear people testimony about how people, you know, sons or daughters, you know, end up on drugs. And parents still feed them, still give them money, still, you know, okay, you can stay here, whatever, you know. I know I ain't supposed to have you here, but you know what I mean? Or whatever. And still pray for them and just say, you know, I'm not gonna give up on my baby. You know, and and and that that's the same type of faith that we we need to have in, you know, in God. We have that faith in God, and then we have that same faith in our children, right? You know, because the Bible says, train up a child in the way. So if you know you've done that, then you've done it the Jesus way.

Speaker 5 35:39

Right.

Speaker 35:40

And so now we just gotta have faith in them and in him, that all things will work together.

Speaker 5 35:47

Right.

Speaker 35:48

For the those who love him and the call or those person. So all that being said, it's it's a it's a lot of nuances and variables. With me, you know, like uh just my different the the some difficulties that I'm having now, just being transparent, is like, so my son Jeremy. Jeremy, when he was born, he had a lot of fluid buildup in his ears, right? And like a year or two after he was born, both of his eardrums burst. And so while his eardrums burst, it it was a long time in healing. He didn't have to do have surgery or anything, but he was like, he could barely hear for a lot out of one ear, like even through all the way probably to when he was in, he's in fourth grade now, to when he was about in first grade, like you say something in his ear, like if this is the ear that was bad, hey Jeremy, what's going on? He'll be like, I can't, you know, he'll laugh, he he, you know, still young, don't really understand it. He was like, Dad, you know I can't hear you. Say it right here. You know, but he he he was battling that, and that was because of the eardrum issue and the fluid buildup because they had put tubes in his ears, the tubes came out, then they did a whole bunch of stuff. Anyway, fast forward. So that ended up affecting his speech. That ended up almost, I don't know how, but it all also affected his motor skills. Fine motor skills. It's something that has to do with hearing and the motor skills. It is something that goes along the lines. Longitation, I don't know. But anyway, Jeremy, you know, he also is like uh you gotta tell you can't say, go to the green car, get the blue backpack, bring me the yellow pencil, and you know, uh whatever, you know, you gotta say one direction at a time. It's just him, not Jeremiah, he's in gifted, he's like with it. His his his nuance of like understanding and context, clues is is there. And so like sometimes I'll say things or whatever, and Jeremy just don't get it the first time, and I find myself getting frustrated. So where I have to continue, and God has actually convicted me on multiple times um is you know not seeing my children as one thing in the way I treat my children, I need to see them as individual human beings. Right. You know, and understanding that Jeremy, I gotta say, hey Jeremy, come down here. Cool. Get the black bag right here. Okay, you got the black bag, take it to the blue table. You see what I'm saying? I'm using that as a you know.

Keith O 38:58

No, no, no, I get you. It's also the teacher and you giving those very specific instructions.

Speaker 39:02

Yeah, and but you know, I like I get frustrated, like he he eats all crazy, you know, and his awareness skills are not good.

Speaker 5 39:14

Right.

Speaker 39:15

They're not good. And I get him like, dog, pay attention. But when he gets on a game, that Joker is like Super Saiyan level on Fortnite. Right. You like he's killing it. And so a lot of times with him, I'll say, Jeremy, you need to have the same focus that you have on the game in life. But where I'm having issues is understanding, like, okay, that's the dynamic in the game versus the dynamic in, you know, in life and awareness. So that's that's like my biggest thing, like right now.

Keith O 39:55

So that's what you're trying to figure out and figure out as a father in this moment. Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 40:01

And like, even like uh, you know, sometimes like you know, I'll take them to school. Well, now they're in camp. So uh my wife's out of town now, so I'm I'm taking them. But you know, last week when my wife was taking them somewhere, they were they were going to camp. She had said, hey, go get my I left my phone on the table in there. And Jeremy's just walking around. I mean, the phone is right here. He just looking. I'm like, what are you doing, Jeremy? Mom told me to get the phone and I don't see it. Sir. You know, and I'm like, Jeremy, like, you really gotta do better with this. Like, and I was kind of intense. And as soon as he left, you know, God convicted me and was like, that, you know, those negative words should never be the last thing you say to your kid before y'all you leave, because if something were to happen, right, like this is your last day or this is his last day, that would be the last thing that you said. And so that's what I'm working on.

Keith O 41:10

Have people suggested other things to you? Like, because you know, I'm a teacher too, so first thing that I'm thinking about is, you know, how can we make tasks around the house like the game? Right. Yeah.

Speaker 41:23

You know, yeah, I mean, you know, I I've actually never thought about it like that. But for me, what I have found to be effective is to give him small tasks. Yeah, break it down. You know, and one thing I do know that Jeremy is he's more of a like he excels at games to where he's reactive instead of proactive. So, like, you know, they all the kids they on Fortnite now. It's pretty much, you know, golden eye. Right. Super Mario Brothers, you know, whatever the era is that game for the moment. But it's, you know, I mean, they're going around and they, you know, shooting people with these little whatever, whatever, you know, trying to get killed. But it's not like Call of Duty. It's a lot more kid friendly. Anyway, all that all that being said, it's, you know, like he excels at things that he can react to literally in the moment, not things that he has to think through. Right. So, like, so for instance, when it comes to, and this is all about the process of understanding him. Yeah. You play chess? I know how to play chess, but I can't play chess.

Keith O 42:46

So one of the things is interesting to me, and I think, you know.

Speaker 42:50

Jeremiah does.

Keith O 42:51

I will say that.

Speaker 42:52

Jeremiah loves chess.

Keith O 42:53

Yeah.

Speaker 42:53

But that's the thinker he is. Jeremy hated.

Keith O 42:56

What I was getting to, so he may hate it because his brother is better at it than him. But one of the things that I've been thinking about, because my wife and I have had this conversation, is sometimes as parents, we have to learn a new thing to support our kids. And so because of the way the chess plays out, it's very much you have to think of head and you have to think of multiple scenarios, and there's an end going on. So I wonder how much Jeremy would like it if he learned to play with you, and y'all were both starting from a place where neither one of y'all are really good. And so there's no pressure to be better than dad. Yeah. I just wonder how that would work out. Because that's one of the games that's really helped me be more proactive in situations because in chess, if you're constantly on defense, you will lose. You have to go on the offensive, you have to think about attacking at some point in the game. You can only play so much defense before you have to pick up makeup. Make an aggressive move. And so, you know, that's something I think uh is worth trying out if you're down to learn something new, which I know you are. You know, you anybody who goes to school for as long as you or I have, you've committed to being a lifelong learner. So that's right. One question that I ask everybody is welcome to fatherhood moment. And so your welcome to fatherhood moment is any moment where because I think you know, we get so into our habits and our patterns and things become routine. And so there's that thing, it can be at the very beginning of it, it's the shocker, or you've gotten to a routine and it's that thing that brings you back to being very present, like, oh, I'm really a dad now, right? So a quick example I welcome the fatherhood moment because I have several, but the one that is the funniest to me and got me right away. 10 minutes after Naeem was born, I'm holding him against my chest, and we're doing skin skin. And I felt something wet on my lap. I'm like, did I pee on myself? So I touch it and I'm like, oh, he just pee on me. But then I look at it, Jeremy, and it's like this black, gooey tar. I'm like, oh, yes sir. And so that was my welcome to fatherhood moment, one of many. So that's the first question for you. Like, what was your welcome to fatherhood moment?

Speaker 45:30

Oh, I got so many, I got so many. We'll start with a real proud moment that I have. And this is actually probably, man, I think Casey was, she might have been three or four years old, you know. But this is probably like one of my proudest moments. So for the football games, the band plays the national anthem, all that stuff. And Casey liked to come to the football games. There was one football game that she didn't want to sit with her mom and be like by the dancers, right? She wanted to like be with me. And so we went down to play the national anthem. And I was like, you know what? Why don't you stand by me while I conduct? And so as I'm, you know, I I'm not thinking that she's watching my, you know, hand gestures. But, you know, I'm thinking she's just gonna stand right here because she wants to be by her dad. But she's literally in front of the band smiling real big doing what dad is doing. Exactly. And, you know, like that it seems very small, but that for me was like wow. You know what I mean? Like my daughter is here with me, and you know, technically, I mean, even we got a climate, whatever in the world, but it's still a very honorable moment as a band director to conduct the national anthem.

Speaker 5 47:09

Yeah.

Speaker 47:10

So that was like a a good welcome to fatherhood moment. Another welcome to fatherhood moment was you know, I'm I'm always I'm always gigging to whatever playing. Tallahassee Nights Live, y'all know about that. So this is a little after the twins were born and Casey could walk, when Val had to go out of town for something, and I had a four-hour rehearsal I needed to go to that I could not miss. Number one, because I just enjoy playing. Number two, because I needed that money. Right. So I got my bass on my back, AC's walking beside me, and I got two car seats that I'm walking in all the way to the rehearsal hall, right? Drop them off. My kids sitting there, couple friends with Talas Nice Live. Y'all watch them real quick. I need to run to the car and grab this. So boom, boom, boom. Like I literally I had a whole setup beside me. All right, Casey, your lunch right here, the little snack right here, boom, boom, boom. I'm playing my bass, I'm working on the music. No, that didn't go well. Okay, I got a hand down here and doing this. And like I was getting real frustrated because I'm like, yo, you know, this is for real, for real. But I feel like I'm the only person that's a parent right now that really understands what I'm going through because I'm working.

Speaker 5 48:41

Yeah.

Speaker 48:41

I got D, I got, I got these babies that's in car seats right here, you know, one sleep, the other one up. He needs attention. Not only put you on my shoulder, I'm still playing bass, I'm putting him down. Right. And then I put, you see what I'm saying? And then my daughter wants attention, and she right here, and I'm like getting overwhelmed after working a whole day at Riggers High School. You know, this is a night rehearsal. And then, you know, technically we out past their bedtime, you know, because the rehearsal started at seven and it ended at 11. So I'm trying to balance that. I had to take them to school in the morning and all of that, you know. And that was like a moment where I wanted to be like, yo, like this is real. You know, like for real. And, you know, one thing that really kind of helped me to get kept me together was one of the singers with TNL. She was like, you know what, Jeremy, you don't realize it yet, but you a real good father right now. And when she told me that, you know, it kind of started to bring me to tears that she was getting going to tears because, you know, she was those kids that was around music. You know, and her father, uh her mom was at rehearsal and at church rehearsal, you know, whatever. So she was that kid around, she was the kid that was screaming and hollering like mine was. That was a welcome fatherhood moment, like for real, for real. You know, I've got I got plenty. Oh, yeah.

Keith O 50:11

I was talking to someone yesterday and they say they said it's a revolving door, like you're gonna get new ones all the time. Because I had one, and this was not such a good one. This is actually this was a scary one for me. Um, because you know, name's only 18 months old, so he hasn't been around that long. Uh I was taking him to daycare and he walks in on his own. Like he, after the first few weeks, you know, they're a little, you know, timid. They don't know these people, you know. But he had gotten to a point where he was comfortable going in. And so got him dressed that morning, you know, dropped my wife off to the train station because she works downtown. So she takes the train. I kept the car because I have to pick him up from daycare. So we walk into daycare, he says his highs, we walk to his classroom and we step inside the door. But as soon as we step in, he like hugs back against my leg like he doesn't want to go today for some reason. So I turn him around and he's facing everybody, but he's still pushing against my leg. Like for some reason today, it's like, nah, I'm something's off, right? So I gotta go to work. So I take a step back. Not, you know, not thinking that you know, I'm taking all of the counterweight away from him, but he falls to a sit and he hits his head on the door right behind me. But he pops right up. So I'm like, okay, he's okay. He doesn't cry, and he he walks into class. So, you know, first time dad, I think nothing of it. So drop him off, I get in the car, I'm headed to work. I get to work, I'm there for an hour before I get a phone call. Hey, uh, Mr. Oliver, you need to come pick Naeem up. He's throwing up. I was like, what do you mean he's throwing up? He slept fine last night. He didn't eat anything this morning that was weird. He was fine when I dropped him off. I didn't mean he's throwing up. But I'm like, okay. So I go to the front office, like, hey, I gotta go pick up my son. He's throwing up. So on the way to pick him up, because I'm thinking he's just, you know, sick. I'm not putting two and two together yet. So I stopped by the store to get him some chicken noodle soup. Yeah. And as I get back in the car and I'm on the way, I'm like, wait, he did hit his head this morning. So I called him back immediately. I'm like, hey, I didn't think it was relevant at the time, but he hit his head this morning, he might have a concussion. So if he tries to go to sleep, keep him awake. So now, you know, I'm driving a little bit faster because I'm trying to get to him just to make sure he's okay. Yeah. I text my wife, like, hey, I gotta go pick up Naean, he's throwing up. She's like, okay, just let me know. So I get there to pick him up. As I get there, he's throwing up again. Like I he's standing behind the welcome desk and he's throwing up again, and his body is just like, he's just like barely on his feet. And I go pick him up, and he immediately just like melts, man. Puts his head on my chest and he starts trying to go to sleep. And I'm like, no, no, Baba, you can't go to sleep. You gotta stay up. So thank God the hospital is right next door to his daycare. Like I can walk to it. And so that's what I did. I didn't even get in the car. I put his jacket on him and I walk him over there to the ER. I explain everything, like, hey, he hit his head this morning. You know, this is all his information. As I'm explaining, he throws up for a fourth time in less than two hours journey. Oh, God. Right. And so we get him back there. I'm explaining everything to the nurse and to the doctor. I'm like, hey, I need him to get uh cast in because I want to make sure he doesn't have any fractures, brain bleeds, or swelling in his brain. And, you know, they're like, well, we're gonna check him out, we're gonna check his sugar first and all these things. I'm like, well, wait, are you saying you're not gonna do what I asked? Because you know how they they like to, you know, play us in the medical field. So I'm like, well, if you're saying you're not gonna do it, I just need you to document that in his chart. Like, no, we're not saying that. We're just gonna check all these other things first. And so as they're checking his vitals and his blood sugar and all that, he's falling asleep. And right now I'm not well, Jeremy. I'm like, no, Baba, you gotta stay up, you gotta stay up. And I'm slowly like falling apart because now I'm feeling responsible and I'm seeing him in a state. So they take him to go give him the CT scan, I carry him the whole way, I lay him on the table, they strap him down, and I want to stand by him. Like, I don't want to leave him at all in this moment. Bit like, but you have to stand on the other side of the glass, it's gonna be really quick.

unknown 54:47

Right.

Keith O 54:48

Get the scans, we get him back to his room. Mom shows up, and I'm just I was so grateful that mom didn't have to see him in that little cat scanning machine. Yeah. So, you know, long story short, you know, he wakes up, he sees mommy, and he's kind of in and out of it because he did end up falling asleep, but they were they were like, you know, you're in the place where it's okay. Typically, that is the rule, you know, he shouldn't fall asleep, but you're at a hospital. And so if anything was to go wrong, you're in the best place for him. Yeah. Because it was a point in time, but they were just moving too slow, and I'm like, hey, y'all are too calm for me. I said it, I'm like, y'all are too calm for me for everything that I've heard about, you know, concussions. Y'all are too calm right now. And that's when they explained everything to me. But all the tests come back negative, you know. Thank God. We get him home, and he's kind of in and out of it again. He wakes up for a little while, you know, he eats a little bit, and uh me and him, we go take a three-hour nap, which is the longest he's like napped since he was like an infant. And so he does this thing. This is how you know he had a good nap. When he wakes up and looks you straight in your face and says, Hi, that's when you know he's okay. And so when he did that, you know, I felt better, but when everything was going on, like I'm crying, like when Jazz walks in, like I'm like beating myself up because the first time he really got hurt, you know, it's my fault. And you know, I had so many fathers tell me, you know, and other people tell me, like, you know, you did the best you could, you figured out what to do, you stayed composed enough to get him help. But it's like that welcome to fatherhood moment, you know, showing you how much you really care about this little person. Um so that was my, you know, my other welcome to fatherhood moment. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 56:50

Man, you know, it's such a, like I said, it's such an interesting dynamic, man. Like, you know, a lot of times, like I when I when I just see people, you know, I just think about different things, you know, like I drop my kids off at camp and I see a lot of different parents and stuff like that, and just think about, man, you know, like many good parents would do anything by any means necessary. Whatever they kid needs, they gonna do it. You know, and like when you talk about like real love, you know what I mean? Like that's it's heavy, you know, because like you know, like sometimes I I I wake up in the morning, I'll be like you know, I didn't say this to them, but I'm thinking in my mind, like, who are you and where did you come from? Why like I gotta work three times as hard as I used to because you're here now. And one thing I will say for all the fathers out there, even if you feel like you're struggling, keep calling yourself a good father. Keep calling yourself a good father. Wake up and say, I'm a good dad. You know, even if you don't have, you know, you're not in on good terms with your baby mama or whatever, you know, or in your marriage or what whatever's happened, keep calling yourself a good dad.

Speaker 4 58:17

Yeah.

Speaker 58:18

Because if you trying and you doing the best you can, you are. And it's gonna be times to where, you know, we're always walking around almost with our cup empty because we're always missed. But I want to take this moment to help fill your cup now and just let you know that you are a good father. Keith, everybody else who's listening, y'all good dads, man. And we gotta keep reminding ourselves that you know it ain't easy. We ain't perfect, but we good fathers.

Keith O 58:52

Yeah. And I'm so glad you said that, and I received that, man, because you know, two things about black men. We're horrible at taking compliments, and you know, you just basically touched on what this is for. This is for us to be a community and to encourage one another because there is a lived-in experience that comes with being a father, and other people, you know, they may be able to sympathize with you and they maybe even have a degree of empathy, but the day-to-day experience, there's something about living it to understand it. And, you know, when you have a space, and I'm hoping that this becomes that space where other fathers can share if they want to, or just go and listen to fathers who are figuring out in real time and like the challenges. I hope this becomes that space for fathers. I hope this becomes the new barbershop. The beauty of this, and I said this the other day, is this is something that will outlive me, not just because it's going to be memorialized and saved on the internet, but because the things that I do as a father will live through my son. And so these conversations, these are for as long as there are humans and recreation on this earth, these conversations will live forever. And if we, similar to the way our fraternity brothers left, you know, study guides, this can be a new form of a father study guide. I appreciate you for your honesty, your vulnerability. Because I know things like this can be really weird because, like, you know, like we said, men traditionally do not have this space. Um, and then, you know, I think it's even more of a challenge to go into these spaces when we haven't had an example of how to be in these spaces. So I'd like to thank you for your time. This is Dr. Jeremy George and Keith Oliver for five figures.

Speaker 1:00:52

All right, man. Appreciate it.